06/24/09 92 W, 1 I - + 18 - 11 Carrboro's New Platform (Updated)

Our friends at the Carrboro Fire Department have passed along a new photo of their new platform, a 2009 Sutphen SPH 100, with a 100-foot, five-section aerial platform, 1,500 GPM Hale single-stage pump, 300-gallon tank, 515 HP Detroit Diesel Series 60 Series engine, and 236-inch wheelbase. It has a six-person cab, full-height compartments on both sides, two 1-3/4-inch crosslays, one 3-inch dry storage compartment, and a rear-view camera. The apparatus replaces a 1990 E-One aerial ladder that will be kept in reserve. More about CFD. Click to enlarge:

Carrboro Fire Department Photo

Now that’s a nice ride!!!
Silver - 06/24/09 - 21:48

Very nice, it’s got crosslays too!!!
"not a truckie" - 06/24/09 - 22:13

sharp looking ride, way to go brothers!
CPF 7021 - 06/25/09 - 21:18

We won’t get into ladder companies and hose lines..
Silver - 06/26/09 - 09:31

Attack lines on ladder trucks…courtesy of the National Fire Protection Accountants…
DJ - 06/26/09 - 14:17

So attack lines on ladder trucks are a bad thing? Please explain or summarize the positions.
Legeros - 06/26/09 - 18:41

YES! Attack lines on ladder truck are a BAD thing, wait I take that back, they are a HORRIBLE thing. A ladder truck is a giant toolbox and should be used as such. When a ladder truck pulls up and starts pulling attack lines, the other critical areas get neglected things like forcible entry, primary search, ventilation, utility control, and scene lighting. Engine companies have 1 responsibility on the fireground GET WATER WHERE IT’S NEEDED! The rest belongs to the ladder! Not to mention, you can save about $100,000 by NOT putting that crap on a ladder truck (tank, pump, and hose) and put ALOT more useful equipment on it. Now, for all those out there saying “ well what if the ladder shows up first on a working structure fire, you need all of that stuff”, well no you don’t! Learn about fire behavior and how to PROPERLY operate your water cans and you will be surprised at what can happen. Okay, I’m done, so to rant and soapbox!

Stay safe guys!
Wayne - 06/26/09 - 21:21

Sorry, meant to say “sorry to rant and soapbox on it”
Wayne - 06/26/09 - 21:22

Combining pumps, tanks, and ladders has always been a cost cutting measure. The idea is by combining a ladder truck and an engine is to save money by buying one instead of both. You also only need one crew instead of two.

Quads were popular during the 40s and 50s. Then quints started coming into popularity.

I’m waiting for quints with 1,000 gallon tanks some day.

Don’t laugh.

Tactics or fireground needs or fire behavior have nothing to do with it.
DJ - 06/26/09 - 21:53

Food for thought:
You have a line of thunderstorms that move through your area like Wilmington had tonight. Lightning strikes cover the area like snow in Canada. You arrive on the scene of a working attic fire and you are ALONE for 20 minutes because you do not have ANY available companies and oh yea, you are riding a ladder with no pump, water, or hose. Sorry Mr. and Mrs. Smith, your house just burned down with a $750,000 ladder truck sitting in the street with four very capable fire fighters trying to do the best they can with a water can and a 5/8” pre-connect (garden hose). I have been there, but fortunately, on an engine. The ladder got there in time to pack our 5” line.
From what I have read, Carrboro or any department could be faced with this situation very easily. I think that adding a pump, water, and hose is adding “tools” to the toolbox.
Should all fire trucks carry a pump, water, and hose? What about Rescues? They could be on the scene of a MVA for an extended time alone. Should they have 250 gallons of water with a 500 GPM pump?
Ladders are there to do the very important functions on the fire scene that do not need water, however, when the building is lost or big fire is winning, the stick, bucket, or snorkel goes in the air and drowns the fire all the while an engine starts to use their deck gun. A ladder with a pump can operate on their own and frees the engine up to move to tighter areas and hit the fire with their deck gun.
I know that there are allot of different opinions on the matter and I would like to hear / read them.
Disclaimer: The views I post here are my own views and do not represent any company, employer, or affiliation that I may have. If you find anything I say offensive or if you have a problem with my posts, then I encourage you to post a rebuttal argument, or come to me personally.
Donaldson (Email) - 06/27/09 - 03:32

I understand the whole “tool box” ladder truck thing. I don’t understand why its bad for a ladder truck to have hose and a pump on it. If the ladder truck is a tool box. Then would it be bad for engine coming 2nd in to a ladder pulling the lines off the tool box first? It can’t be that hard to belive a ladder could be first in to a fire. We hear it all the time WF L1 going to a EMS call. Why not have hose and a pump and not need it then need it and not have it.
"not a truckie" - 06/27/09 - 08:09

If ladder trucks shouldn’t have pumps and hoselines, why are ladders put on engines?
Captain Obvious - 06/27/09 - 09:50

From what I have seen, in my limited scope, it is that the majority (but not all) of the departments that have quints do not understand the tactical difference in deploying a single truck that can do a lot as opposed to two trucks that can do everything. I have seen many 75’ ladder trucks with engine equipment (pump, hose, tank) used as ladder trucks but never as engines- the pump never being used. I have seen plenty of 95’ platforms that have never fought a fire on their own, usually because they are not staffed to do so or are quartered with an engine and they always run with the engine.

Can there be a situation that the ladder arrives on it’s own without engine company support? Sure, and I am sure it has happened. Same with an engine arriving at a four story with fire and occupants on the third floor without a ladder company. Been there.

My biggest concern is that usually, there is not adequate training on utilizing the combination apparatus at their fullest potential. I have seen a lot of ‘combinations’ including quads (pump, tank, hose, and ground ladders), telesqurts (sort of a quad, with a telescopic or articulating boom instead of the ground ladder complement), and quints (quad with an aerial device).

I have seen the rescues with a small tank, pump, and attack lines. I have seen ambulances with the same set-up, as well as ambulances with full rescue gear. But I have never seen any of these used as a stand alone response unit.

I even saw a full triple combination pumper at the E-One factory that had an ambulance module on it.

I will clarify- combinations can work, but only if the training is there. And that CANNOT be accomplished in the solely in the classroom. It takes practice, practice, practice. The kind of practice that I seldom see fire departments doing anymore, even less so in the current economy.

They have you guys saddled with too much cleaning, busy work, car seat installations, etc.

Just my $0.02 worth. No one else’s.
DJ - 06/27/09 - 10:51

A ladder companies job is to perform ladder company ops, not engine company operations. You do not need a pump nor attack lines for that matter on a ladder. If a ladder arrives first on the scene then they need to start ladder company operations not engine company operations, you have engines coming. Example situation: If a ladder arrives first on the scene and performs fire attack then where is your ladder company now, they have been commited to fire attack, now you have essentialy lost your ladder company. Suppose a rescue situation develops where the aerial is needed, the personnel who are trained on and are the most proficent in operating the ladder are inside fighting fire. So now you have to take from other engine companies on the scene to now take the place of your ladder company and they might not be familar with the ladder and its equipment, nor will they probably be as proficent. I am sure that firefighters on the scene would adapt, firefighters always do and do a good job at that, but why place them in that situation when it is not required. Also in regards to quints, there is a place for them, such as rural areas where a aerial may take some time to get there and a dual role apparatus may be necessary. In large cities quints aren’t necessary because you have enough engine companies avaliable, you don’t need your ladders to perform both roles.
wfd - 06/28/09 - 10:30

There are a lot of good thinking and discussion going on here. How many of you have gone or been anywhere else and have TRAINED on just Ladder Company Operations? Here is another thing; How many have you have aerial trucks in your department? How many of you see the Engine Company get dispatched to a LOCK- OUT and /or Forcible Entry call and that big TOOLBOX on wheels sits in quarters? So while we are discussing tactics lets look at the history of our departments around here. They have predominately been Engine Company Departments for years and now we have a aerial unit.
Now we have to try to (CHANGE) your departments way of thinking. the word “CHANGE” is just as bad as the word “CHAOS”. Cause that is what it does. Lets be honest here with each other. We all have seen Engine Company work being performed by Ladder Company personal, but do we see Engine Company personal doing Truck work, not really.
The word “TOOLBOX” is another thing that we say instead of 10lbs. of ____ in a 5lb. box. There are so many departments lacking the truckee mentality, our job is to Vent, Search, Rescue, throw Ladders, and help with the location of the fire but not to extinguishment.
Another thing that I find is that we are creatures of HABIT, afraid to think outside the box and go get training from outside of our COMFORT ZONE. Afraid of what others might think of us if we were to fail during training. That is where I want to make my mistakes to be made and not on the fire scene with a family needing to be rescued and I am not on my “A” Game.
I have sat on two Aerial Work-Teams in my career and we order a Aerial Unit like we are ordering an Engine Company. If you have the chance to get on one of these committees go to the manufacture plant and talked to the engineers that design these units and get there input.
I know a lot of us like to put down each others thoughts about how we should be doing Truck Work but lets face it it is not getting done on some of the fire scenes that I have been to. Why do we dispatch Ladder Companies to structure fires if they are going to do Engine Company work when they get there?

GOD BLESS” and lets all stay safe out there. Great Topic…..
johnson - 06/28/09 - 15:43

Everything Johnson said is exactly right. Why even have ladder companies in a department if you aren’t going to use them properly. Ladder companies should not be performing engine company operations, nor should they be spec’ed or set up too, because their jobs are not the same on the fireground. If ladders and engines performed the same functions then there would be no need for two different types of apparatus. Also what was said about change is also dead on, we are to many times scared to change for fear of failure. Hopefully we can get out of this mentality and we will begin to see true truck company operations catch on in this area.

Everybody stay safe and great disscusion
wfd - 06/28/09 - 17:39

A HUGE THANK YOU goes to you! You hit the nail square on the head and drove it through the board, great job! Maybe one day the others will get it, but we can only hope.

Stay safe
Wayne - 06/28/09 - 20:15

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