08/24/10 46 W, 1 I - + 3 - 3 Rehab

Medical monitoring with Six Forks EMS at last night's house fire on Gibbs Hill Court, with Bay Leaf, Durham Highway, Stony Hill, and Falls fire departments. Included water shuttle operations. Was a dark and humid night. Photos later.

It looks from the pictures that the brothers did a great stop on that fire. Good Job guys. I have one question because I have never really been to the Northside for anything. But i was working the night of the fire and why does Bayleaf get only 2 pumpers and a ladder to a reported house fire in a non hydrant area. I dont really know how things run in the northern area but i am wondering . Good job again guys
Southside Firefighting - 08/25/10 - 11:57

haha…just don’t start.
Ha - 08/25/10 - 12:30

Each department determines the run order they wish to receive for their response area. It may be based on ISO needs/requirements or other reasons deemed appropriate by the department.
A.C. Rich - 08/25/10 - 13:35

And to make sure that another department doesn’t beat you in to the call in your area
My Yard - 08/25/10 - 14:01

A.C. but is it safe and right for both the responding companies and the homeowners to only have that dispatched. I think for the good of the public they should have closest mutual aid department respond as well. I was told that Bayleaf has also been running duty crew out of their Station 1 since repairs are going on at their Station 2. If that’s the case then I believe Durham Highway should have been requested off dispatched being that they were closer and had multiple calls referencing to a working fire. I don’t know but I hope they don’t have and/or want auto aid coming because they might get beat in. That is not the right reason, we do it for both our and the public’s safety. I believe that every department around Bayleaf has auto aid from where ever coming off dispatch but Bayleaf sets their self’s apart by only having themselves dispatched. I have nothing bad towards Bayleaf just wondering about things.
Southside Firefighting - 08/25/10 - 16:36

As I said previously, a fire department deems what is appropriate and decides what resources they wish to “dispatch.” In this case (and for example), a run order may be “X”, however the actual department response may be X+Y (much greater). I do not mind speaking openly about any issue or question, but I honestly cannot answer intuitively when discussing the motive of another fire department. It’s simple, I do not have the details. Professionally and as a fire chief, I respect the decisions of other departments and abide by them. If I have a specific concern or question, I ask them.
A.C. Rich - 08/26/10 - 00:12

Southside firefighting, if you listen to the southside there are departments that have only the two closest engines and ladder dispatched. At Bayleaf they have three engines at their stations 1 and 3, and two at station 2. Cad is going to recognize the two closest and if there are only one in service then it may pull from another department or station. With only a single tone throughout their department all their personel will be paged and respond and add theirselves to the call.
JG - 08/26/10 - 09:03

Well since it has began…I respect what Chief Roof determines is best for his department and the citizens that live in the district that Bay Leaf serves, with that said I do not agree with all the logic that is used in the thought process of this run card. My biggest concern and issue is with the fact that a fire may be dispatched in station 1’s district or a second due wreck or whatever and a truck from station 3 will respond all the way across town before a mutual aid unit is called, many times these mutual aid units are several miles closer. Running an apparatus emergency traffic presents a danger to the public and to the members aboard that truck the father you have to go the greater the chance of accident. With this stated I do not understand why it seems that the Bay Leaf fire department is afraid to ask for a closer mutual aid unit to be dispatched and instead runs 121 or 122 or whatever from Lynn Rd. to a wreck on Norwood Rd. before asking for SHFD or DHFD or FFD depending on where exactly it is. Bay Leaf you guys do a hell of a job and I respect you for that my only thought is that possibly pride is getting in the way of logic?
Ha - 08/26/10 - 11:50

Ha…That’s how you justify keeping 3 stations active in 2010. Keep them involved. Your points are valid and if true, then that’s
just how they operate. But what’s the old saying…If you don’t use it, you will loose it.
Justify, Justify, Justify. Pad those stats and keep yourself out of the firing lines.
Buckwheat - 08/26/10 - 22:57

For the record BLFD responded with 8 vehicles to this incident (361, 366, L25, R36, 258, 122, 121, 120.) That is over 6000 gallons of water. I don’t think that is any disservice to the community. There are parts of the BLFD district where other department are on the dispatch. On the Eastern side, two of Falls engines have been dispatched with L25 often.
Ha – using ‘respect’ and ‘afraid’ in the same post seems disingenuous.
There have been many times where station 3 trucks have stood by at other stations while those stations are out on calls.
In response to all the negative comments, Bay Leaf’s problem is that it suffers from having 3 stations, a dedicated career staff, and an active volunteer base. It’s a tough situation, don’t you know.
[PJF] - 08/27/10 - 13:44

8 vehicles is great, but how many firefighters were on each? A vehicle responding with just a driver just doesn’t cut it.
Curious - 08/28/10 - 00:23

Why worry about how a fire department that you do not belong to runs their department? Anyone of you criticizing another department needs to take a step back and look at how perfect your department is not. A lot of us “brothers” sit around griping/posting about other departments instead of sitting around trying to come up with a common goal of how we all can operate the same or how we all can help each other. We can all sit around and bash another fire department, or you can be the better person and find something better to do. Every fire department in Wake County operates indepently and to their own accord. Get over it. Do something more constructive with your time.
Marcus - 08/28/10 - 04:40

Just for the record, having spent a fair amount of time around Bay Leaf FD (I am a part time paramedic and district chief with SFEMS) I have never seen one of their trucks go out the door “driver only” except for the air truck or one of the Suburbans. I have never seen the brush truck leave without two people. I have never seen the engines or the rescue leave without at least three, and usually four. Anytime the ladder has shown up there were at least three, and usually more, personnel on it. And anytime I have been one one of their calls, I have never seen a shortage of people. Quite the contrary, usually a healthy reserve.

I’m with Marcus and AC. It’s OK to not agree with something but you have to respect the decisions of the ‘powers-that-be’. It’s the system we have and probably is not going to change anytime soon.

And it’s easy to criticize behind an anonymous name.
DJ - 08/28/10 - 07:28

I agree, well put DJ…
Silver - 08/28/10 - 23:25

DJ look closer I have been on a second in engine and the first in Bay Leaf engine with only 2 people.
JG - 08/29/10 - 12:48

Didn’t say it hasn’t happened, just that I have never seen it. And I am up that way quite a few days a month. But I’ll concede that it does happen, but not as often as some would like to say.
DJ - 08/29/10 - 16:15

It was my understanding that this is a CAD driven issue, NOT a Bay Leaf driven issue. For example, the members and paid staff at Bay Leaf are under orders to follow the run order the Chief has determined. When a call comes in, there are no other departments dispatched because that is something some programmers and people who sit in offices decided a long time ago. Bay Leaf USED to get auto-aid departments on both fire alarms and structures, but no more. In fact, I understand that members and paid staff have to request to have mutual aid departments dispatched on a structure related call, if they aren’t on the card automatically. What sense does that make? That’s one more thing the officer has to concern him or herself with, when it should be AUTOMATIC. Bay Leaf, Falls, Stony Hill, none of us can do this ourselves, what with dwindling volunteers, manpower issues, etc. We need to find a way to have departments dispatched AUTOMATICALLY, so we, and the public we serve are safe.
JAFO - 08/29/10 - 16:25

Why is everyone blaming me???? This is not a “CAD driven” issue although Im sure its an easy excuse for people to dump on me instead of looking within their own agency. I send what I am programmed to send which comes as a direct result of what each fire department decides what they want sent on each call in their area. Don’t blame me for it!!!!!!
CAD - 08/29/10 - 17:03

CAD, how can this NOT be a "CAD driven" issue? Wouldn’t departments like Bay Leaf and all the others WANT automatic mutual aid to be at least dispatched in the direction of the call, without someone having to do that? Are you actually suggesting that Bay Leaf doesn’t WANT mutual aid departments on structure related calls? That seems a bit odd, don’t you think? (Never mind the goofy territorial crap / egos…This is about safety for us and the citizens we serve.) CAD is programmed by people, as I said in my previous post, who sit in offices and don’t know what the demands are like out in the field. I think it a bit strange that a Chief would actaully tell those people in the offices that he/she doesn’t want help on structure related calls dispatched AUTOMATICALLY.
JAFO - 08/30/10 - 09:25

Let’s take a time out, for a bit. Before we get into dead horse territory.

I’m a big fan of meta-discussions, so let’s discuss the discussion. Roll eyes as desired.

A number of unnamed people— apparently members or interested parties in the local fire service— are posing questions and criticisms about the process that results in assets dispatched/arriving at fires, in the district of a particular fire department.

That process involves a number of steps or components, including the fire department’s pieces, as well as other links in the chain. Such as the CAD system used on the dispatching front.

Looking specifically at the fire department— at any private department, serving in Wake County— the things that govern and influence the decisions and directions of a department are a bit complex. Pieces of the puzzle include, say, the size and characteristics of the district, their ISO requirements, the county fire service contract, the directions and intentions of the command staff, and the directions and intentions of the board. And so on.

And all of which is perhaps more multi-faceted than a blog discussion can adequately handle. (Of course, Joe Six Pack— or is it Joe the Plumber these days?— sees things far more simply. I pay taxes, I call 911, fire truck shows up.)

Then there’s the anonymous factor. That can taint the whole thing. It can lend positive or neutral discussions a presumed air of negativity. Which in turn caffect the tone of responses and resulting discussions. Others, as have told me in person, don’t believe that anonymous comments are worthy of response. Heck, some don’t think they even deserve reading!

But the blog is what we’ve got, and anonymous is part of the present pie. And is it homemade or store-bought pie? To be determined.

Guess we could open the floor with open questions. Discuss the discussion of the discussion.

If you want to heard, what’s the best forum for voicing opinions on these matters?

If you want to affect change, what’s the best route to that route?
Legeros - 08/30/10 - 12:28

The “run order” and alarm assignments for the fire service are provided to us by the Raleigh Fire Department and the Wake County Fire Marshall’s Office based upon input from the chiefs. The current alarm assignments were drawn up, in most cases, several years ago, and updated based upon new streets, annexations, etc. The particular STATION assignments are driven by a software routine that actually traces the street network and determines what station is closest to any given address regardless of agency. There may be other modifiers in this mix including limited access highways, the need for sending additional apparatus on limited access highways, etc. The NUMBER and TYPE of units to send is again driven by the Fire Departments. No one sitting anywhere other than under a white hat is making a call about who gets sent anywhere on an alarm, especially a machine. The bottom line is that anyone wanting to know why certain rigs were assigned to a certain call in a certain department should “ask the chief of that certain department.” I can assure you that if we send the wrong department or the wrong resources, they’ll let us know. Anyone wanting a clearer understanding how the CAD process works can call me and I’ll be happy to go into greater detail. But again, if you want to know why a certain department does things – whether it’s how they fight a fire to who the send on a call – they’re your first stop, out of both courtesy to the chief (none of whom are hard to work with, by the way) and also because that’s where you are going to get the answer.
RWECC - 08/30/10 - 15:23

Echo the statements by REWCC in the prior post. Resource deployments are determined by chiefs of departments. Full stop. Historically there has been a lot of effort put in to run order management such that an engine is not an engine or whatever. CAD has to contend with different capabilities for a Bayleaf Engine or a Wendell Engine, even though they may be an identical vehicle, to make sure that an engine from the right jurisdiction is dispatched, even though it may not be the closest resource. It’s a very complex arrangement, but the staff at RWECC just administer what they are given – they don’t “make it up” from behind a desk.

Opinions are good – in some cases facts are better. If you’re not sure of your facts, there are plenty of knowledgeable people who can answer questions.
CH100 - 08/31/10 - 11:07

Ditto!! Thanks!
A.C. Rich - 08/31/10 - 12:25

I don’t know if anyone even on this thread was on the call. As soon as the first units marked on scene we were dis[patched. I have no idea if we were called for, or it was an auto dispatch. We got there pretty quick, and BL had the fire knocked down, and had already begun checking for extension. They had a GOOD water supply established, and two trucks ready to dump their load into the set up dump tank that was already full when we got there (less than 5 min after first arriving units)

I don’t know how it is all the dispatching is supposed to work. But in this case, a good stop was made by an aggressive attack which lead to MINIMAL loss of personal property by a homeowner. So argue as you will. In this case the objectives we all live by were well executed by all that night.
MG@DHFD - 08/31/10 - 15:02

I listened to the call and while many units did arrive promptly, your time scale is likely a little condensed. 5 min is a little fast. Any department that runs tanker shuttles knows it takes a few minutes to get set up and running. Not saying Bay Leaf cant do it but upon listening to the call and the continued request for more and more mutaul aid units to be dispatched i think 5 min is a little fast for lines to be stretched, entry made, fire extinguished, overhaul and search for extension to be done all in the same moment the 2nd 3rd and 4th in trucks to all be in place, in line drop tank filled and supply lines on the ground and a 5th truck that must have dumped already off to a water point. Bay leaf deserves a lot of credit for what they do day in and day out and they did a great job here again but lets not skew the picture too bad, but to go back to it if you at DH and the guys at FL and SH get requested for mutual aid on almost any working fire, why not make them on the dispatch to begin with. And to answer your question DH units were requested, no auto aid dispatch on that.
Friendly Listener - 09/01/10 - 00:16

You know, we could have a heck of a good round table on these and other favorite blog issues. Guess we’d have to level-set, and maybe let everyone be anonymous. Here’s an idea! Save your Halloween masks, and we’ll schedule a Wake County Fire Blog Commission meeting! No, wait, we’d still recognize each other’s voices. And height, weight, and body features might just give each other away. “Hey, that fat boy in a Hawaiian ain’t foolin’ anyone…” Happy Wednesday.
Legeros - 09/01/10 - 06:46

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