09/22/06 209 W - + 14 - 9 WCFC Meeting News

News from last night's Wake County Fire Commission meeting... Durham Highway has ordered a second Pierce pumper, identical to last year's countywide-spec delivery... Units on this year's apparatus replacement schedule include Durham Highway E1, Eastern Wake E5, Falls E212, Garner E10 and E3, Swift Creek E3, Fuquay-Varina E_ and E2, Holly Springs E3, Zebulon E94, Wake Forest Brush 69, Apex Brush 1, Holly Springs Brush 5, Morrisville Brush 3, and Zebulon E99 (brush unit)... And a county apparatus unit designation proposal has been drafted. The proposal renames all county unit descriptions and CAD unit names as necessary. Alas, the proposal was not presented last night, so it's probably some weeks or a couple months away from approval. Units from Raleigh, Cary, and RDU are not included in the proposal document. The new designations:

Air - Breathing air vehicle
Brush - Brush trucks, mini pumpers
Boat - All watercrafts
Car - Sport utility vehicles, chief officers
Engine - Pumpers (without rear dump)
Haz-Mat - Hazardous response vehicles
Ladder - Ladders, platforms
Pumper - Pumper/tankers (with rear dump)
Rescue - Rescue trucks (with extrication/rescue equipment)
Squad - Service trucks (fire support, ISO support equipment)
Tanker - Duh
Utility - Pick-up trucks, utility vehicles
Unit - Special equipment (command unit, others)

Is the new Durham Hwy Eng to replace an old one or to replace the one that was wrecked? Any clue on when these trucks will start being delivered? Also, will these new apparatus identifiers be for just the new trucks or are they going to rename everything that is already in the county?
GFDLT1 - 09/22/06 - 19:07

I believe the new DHFD engine replaces an old one. The wrecked one, I’m told, is almost back in service. Don’t know about deliveries. As for the apparatus identifiers, I’m told the objective is all units old and new.
Legeros - 09/22/06 - 19:09

surprised that they didn’t go with “tender” as outlined by NIIMS, as “tanker” is used by airborne firefighting equipment. I take that back, nothing the county does really surprises me!

I still think rather than rename all of this stuff it still needs to be numbered correctly and to heck with the names… if the numbers meant something you wouldn’t need the names, I can’t really understand why they made a designation between “engine” and “pumper”, pumper just doesn’t sound right without “tanker” behind it…

oh well it’s a start
CFP 7021 - 09/22/06 - 20:14

The Eng that DHFD wrecked has been repaired and is going to be going back in service shortly after a couple last minute repair details are sorted out and more driver training time goes into that truck. As anyone knows that peirce model with the 1250 tank drives very different from many other trucks.
DHFD - 09/22/06 - 21:56

How many engine companies don’t have a dump tube on the rear in the county? Seems like there will be few engines and a whole lot of pumpers. Like 7021, a pumper without “tanker” behind really sounds weird.
Rides A Truck - 09/22/06 - 22:17

County engines without dump tanks, quickly looking at my printed list:

Apex – 5
BL – 0
DH – 1
EW – 0
Fairview – 2
Falls – 0
FV – 2
Garner – 4
HS – 0
Hopkins – 0
Morris – 2
NH – 0
Roles – 2
SH – 0
SC – 1
WF – 1
Wendell – 0
WW – 1
Zeb – 2
Legeros - 09/22/06 - 22:36

I believe Apex Engine 2 (excuse me, Pumper 2) has a dump tube at the rear. Engines 1, 3, 4, 5 don’t.
guest - 09/23/06 - 01:15

Any idea on what the rescue truck is going to be yet? And who is slated to get one?
Adam Brown - 09/23/06 - 09:03

also on the new “pumpers” that the county bought depending on the specs the rear dump is a royal PITA to use, as is the dump tank to remove from the truck, these trucks were designed to be called pumper/tankers but not used as such… the new tankers are much better suited for dump tank operations
CFP 7021 - 09/23/06 - 10:52

To correct the original posting. The naming system proposal document excludes Raleigh, Cary, and RDU. The overall scope of the project may not.
Legeros - 09/23/06 - 12:51

Durham Highway has already ordered another engine that will be identicle to Engine 4. Engine 4 is back and is being put back into service by the end of the month after some training is done with it. The new engine will be the replacement for Engine 1 and should be in around Jan/Feb 2007.
Dhfde3 (Email) - 09/23/06 - 13:33

Don’t quote me on this, but I believe our 2 new Engines in Garner are also going to be engines and not pumpers. From the firehouse talk, we aren’t getting a rear dump. We don’t set up drop tank operations on fires in non-hydranted areas. I am not going to say that we won’t ever do it or that it hasn’t been done in the past, but we prefer to nurse feed in those situations. Although we do train for drop tank situations if the need arises. The majority of our district has hydrants and more are added all the time as the town annexes more property.
Durham Hwy, I am glad to hear that your truck is going back in service soon. I saw it at Fleet Pride not long after the accident. I was glad to hear that Bubba and the boys weren’t injuried.
GFDLT1 - 09/23/06 - 14:25

the unit name changes from my understanding is a nims issue, and that they will require all units nationwide to change to 4 digit numbers…not sure but that is what i have heard
kp209a - 09/23/06 - 19:18

Just FYI...the apparatus committee is the group working on the new naming conventions – not “the county”. I understand that apparatus numbering was discussed at great length also.
Guest - 09/25/06 - 15:05

FYI, all committee meetings (Apparatus, Staffing, Budgeting, Facilities, and Compensation) are open meetings and most meetings are posted at http://www.wakegov.com/calendar/..
McGraw (Email) - 09/25/06 - 16:49

To clarify my comments, as noted by Guest above, the apparatus naming proposal has been crafted by the Apparatus Committee of the Wake County Fire Commission. The scope of the proposal is county-wide, though no one county agency, per se, is drafting same. The proposal would require approval by the fire commission to move forward, I believe. Alas I don’t know the next steps past that point.
Legeros - 09/25/06 - 18:42

Concerning Unit Naming/numbering, there is a simple fix. ENFORCE the county numbering system in place now in the county regarding station numbering. I don’t see what the big deal or hold up, is it foolish pride or what? This very discussion is currently going on in another discussion forum and the system most accepted by everyone around is:
Engine: NFPA 1901 Class A pumper, numbering would be county station first then 1,2,3,etc. Example: Falls FD (Co st #21) E-211, E-212, E-213, etc

Any specialty apparatus: Use county station number only
Tanker: Any apparatus designed to shuttle water in a Rural Water Operations event, if a dept uses pumper/tankers, then they should decide at the time that the apparatus is placed in service what its designation will be, if Engine, follow the above suggestion. If a tanker follow specialty apparatus suggestion, if a dept has more that 1 tanker then simply add a 1,2 and so forth. Example: New Hope st. 2 (Co. st. #31) K-31, K-311, K-312,etc
Brush: any minipumper, skid unit, or apparatus that is too small to meet the NFPA 1901 standard for Class A pumper. Again use the specialty piece suggestion. Example Stony Hill St 1 ( Co. st #26) Brush-26

Rescue: Any apparatus that carries a full complement of rescue tools and some “fire ground support tools” (I love this wording used these days) ie Hooks,pike poles, saws, and blowers. Bottom line if it DOES NOT HAVE AN AERIAL DEVICE, it should be classified as a RESCUE.
Example: Garner FD St. 1 (Co St #8) R-8

Truck: Any apparatus designed/equipped with an aerial device. If it does not have an aerial device, it is a rescue, no matter what other equipment that is on it. Further more, break this down a little further to Ladder/Truck for straight sticks and Tower for ladder towers or tower ladders (yea there is a difference between these 2) that way the IC know EXACTLY what is responding to his incident.

Chief vehicles: Fire chiefs use the “home station” number, while Deputy chief uses “home station number +1 or next station number” and so forth.
Example: Bay Leaf Fire Chief: Chief 25, Bay Leaf Deputy chief either Chief 25-1 or Chief 36, and so on.

Pick up or other assorted vehicles: Utility with the station number. Example: Wake Forest’s pick up truck (currently T-6) would be Utility-6.

Also, I have looked all over the NIMS and FEMA websites and documents and can find no mention of a 4 digit numbering requirement for apparatus. If some has concrete proof, please share with all of us. All I have read is that everything needs to be STANDARDIZED and INTEROPERABLE. Therefore, I fully believe that if the county would simply enforce the station numbering system in place and use some kind of apparatus standardization and designation it will all work out just fine. But that is just MY OPINION and MY Opinion ONLY.
Wayne - 09/26/06 - 14:28

I think that we need to add squad to that list.
guest - 09/26/06 - 20:53

I think Wayne is on to something with his suggestion. My inclination is that the gold leaf and vinyl vendors are pushing this change under the table. Do you realize how many Engine 1 and 2’s would have to be relettered??
jolson (Email) - 09/27/06 - 21:24

Wayne, I back your opinion 100%. Love ya’, miss ya’.....
Silver - 09/27/06 - 21:42

Wayne – a quick question using your scenario with WNHFD stn 31, if they have tanker K-31 and Station 3 (I don’t know who that is right off) gets a 2nd tanker, then how do you avoid two K-31s? Would a station designator (1 or 2 digits as appropriate) followed by a single digit unit type designator work better? Not sure, just wondering out loud.
McGraw (Email) - 09/28/06 - 11:22

wherein lies the only real problem with how wayne’s ideas would work. I’m more for using the station numbers upfront as the current county scheme does and then an indicator at the end for all suppression units, ie a tanker at WNHFD would be K-316 , K-317, D-318, brush would be B-319, Engines would be E-311, E-312, E-313, E-314, This would be due to the number of pieces that are in the county and how the county station numbering scheme works. Now for support pieces (ladders, rescues, trucks, utility, chiefs) just use the county station number, WWFR’s Rescue would be R-29, DHFD’s would be R-18.

This could work better because I’m not aware of any station having more than one rescue, ladder, truck or other support pieces associated with it.

I kind of agree to disagree with wayne that there is a difference between a truck, rescue and ladder (or tower, whatever), a truck is a unit that is for fire support and has NO extrication/rescue equipment on it, a rescue is a unit that has extrication/rescue equipment on it and is not an engine or ladder, a ladder is any device with an aerial device. This is basically the way that Cary FD names their units now, and it seems to work well.

Another possible way you could number chief’s would be to take the home station number and add xx00, xx01, xx02 to it. IE Fuquay’s chief would be Chief-700, asst, Chief-701, etc… no more of this Car 1, Car 2 stuff or if you please you could just use the home station number for the chief ie, Hopkins’ chief would be Chief-22, asst chief could be Chief-2201, etc…

There are a bunch of possibilites, but it would really take sitting down with the current CAD document with all units in it and trial and error to see what would work best in this county. But I am def. of the opinion that something needs to be done.
CFP 7021 - 09/28/06 - 11:51

my understanding is with the 4 digit numbering, your station identifier would be the first 2, the 3rd number would be a engine, tanker brush, 1, 2, 3, 4, and the 4th digit would be 1st out, 2nd out etc.
new hope enging 2 would be 2811 station 28, 1=engine, 1=first out.
This is a draft that came from homeland security that i read, i dont know if they are serious or not. could be just a thought
kp209a - 09/28/06 - 15:10

To address yor concern, to my knowledge there is no co station number 3, I believe the county station numbering starts at 4 with Apex and then goes from there. I can understand your thoughts and appreciate the opinion on it as well as cfp’s. I think that type of system can also work here. My point is there needs to be a system wide overhaul and whatever is decided, it should be enforced countywide.
kp209a- I have heard the same thing, but have been unable to find it in writing anywhere. Plus, how can you have a 2 digit station number if your station number is single digit (ie Wake Forest St. 1 which is county station 6) I am just curious, that’s all. Love ya
Wayne - 09/28/06 - 18:15

So would a Dive Truck now be considered a Unit, Utility, or Squad? Reading the descriptions, I would guess Unit.
guest - 09/28/06 - 21:04

I’d go with Utility probably, are there dedicated dive units in the county?
CFP 7021 - 09/28/06 - 21:44

Apex is all I think…?
guest - 09/29/06 - 17:15

So is the county coming up the a rescue truck spec?
Adam Brown - 09/30/06 - 09:45

Last I heard, the Apparatus Committee of the WCFC was drafting specs on a service/support/rescue truck.
Legeros - 09/30/06 - 10:18

the apparatus committe has a spec on a rescue, it’s a nice spec
kp209a - 09/30/06 - 11:36

And those departments with old or older service/rescue trucks would be the likely ones to receive replacements, though once the spec is turned into a bid, any department would fund add their own, self-funded addition. Who has old service/rescue trucks around Wake? Holly Springs’ truck is on the older side, for starters.
Legeros - 09/30/06 - 12:00

Fairview Rescue 1 is a 1994.
Bay Leaf Sq25 is a 1991.
New Hope Trk14 is a 1994.
Stony Hill Sq26, not sure.. 1991?
Wake Forest Sq6, 1993.

What would be considered “old/older”? 10+ years old?
guest - 09/30/06 - 15:55

Stony Hill’s squad is a step van…and it’s old.
guest - 09/30/06 - 20:28

Garner Rescue 1 is like an 89 or 88 Mack, I think.
Guest - 09/30/06 - 22:07

Other older ones: Knightdale’s is a 1986 former midi-pumper. Wendell’s is a 1987. Fairview’s might be a 1980s model, also.
Legeros - 09/30/06 - 22:13

I agree with you all but, are the 101’s (call sign for an asst.chief), 200’s Capt. and Lt. not being used anymore in wake county? If that is the case what is worse you have 2 different engine 5 enroute or inside the structure you could have 2 different 201’s calling for 2 different needs. I’d be more concerned with the fact that while some people are worring about repeating eng, ladders, tankers, we need to ask this. You want a standard on app. id, where is you standard accountability system!!!!!?????????
Jason Lane - 10/03/06 - 00:45

You’re right, that is also part of the HUGE overall problems in Wake County. The Officers would fall in line with the numbering system such as we have been discussing, because the problems you’ve mentioned have already been occurring in the county. A possible solution for the officers are one of 2 ways:
Stony Hill Fire Chief: Chief 26 or 2600
Wake Forest Deputy Fire Chief: Deputy Chief 6, Chief 6-1, or 601
Rolesville Fire Captain: Capt. 15 or 1503
The officer assigned to a piece of apparatus would be designated as either the apparatus portable or ALPHA call sign. Ie: WNHFD’s officer of E-311: “E-311 portable” or “E-311 Alpha” The driver keeps the apparatus designation “E-311”, while the firefighters follow in line either “E-311 Alpha” (if the officer is E-311 portable) or E-311 Bravo(if the officer is E-311 Alpha)
I couldn’t agree more with you on the accountability issue. The biggest thing everyone agrees about and would help the most here is STANDARDIZATION.

Stay Safe brother
Wayne - 10/03/06 - 15:55

Why not just use:
E311-Portable 1: Captain of E311
E311-Portable 2: Driver of E311
E311-Portable 3: Senior FF of E311
E311-Portable 4: FF of E311

I believe I understand the system you described above, but I think it offers too much flexibilty.. thus increasing the confusion. Meaning, if my Captain on B-shift usually uses the term “E311 Alpha” then on B-shift I would normally be “E311 Bravo”; however, say I’m covering for someone on C-shift and the Captain prefers to say “E311 Portable” then I would be “E311 Alpha.” I know it might seem trivial, but I could see how one could become confused while they are trying to concentrate on fireground opertaions and not what their radio call sign is. I think it should be agreed that ALL Departments and ALL Captains go by “Alpha” OR “Portable” not either or. Reading back over your comment I might have misinterpreted it. If you were saying that all departments should decide on using either Alpha or Portable (not the Captain’s personal preference), then simply ignore my comment – as I misinterperted what you were saying!
Luke - 10/03/06 - 17:05

Not to change the subject but to go back to rescues, the county doesn’t need to replace all the rescues, just use mutal aid from departments that have rescues and cut out the cost of buying new rescues and use it to staff some of the rescues around the county, if you establish rescues for the following stations: Westren Wake, Moorsville, Durham Highway, Stony Hill, Either Swift Creek or Farview, Wake Forest, New Hope, Garner, and either East Wake or Knightdale and I think you’d be covered country wide.
guest - 10/03/06 - 17:40

Thats not to say that you can’t include extrication equipment on engines from all departments— but not every department needs a dedicated rescue with a large amount of cribbing, hydralic tools, low angle rescue, fire support, other neccesary tools for 10-50s— saws etc. Just like every department doesen’t need a ladder truck.
guest - 10/03/06 - 17:44

Luke I think you have misunderstood Wayne. Just because you are on B-shift doesn’t make you E311 Bravo. If you are the Capt on the truck, no matter what shift is working, you are still E311 Alpha. E311 Bravo would be the driver of the engine. If the Capt is out that day and the driver is now riding the seat or another Capt from a different shift is filling in, then they are still E311 Alpha. That way this is no confusion as to what shift is working. These are not personal numbers like the 15 million vollies used to have back 5 or 10 years ago. These numbers are assigned to the respect position of a personal on the crew.
GFDLT1 - 10/03/06 - 18:42

they way Im understanding this breaks down as follows:
Driver E311
Officer E311 Alpha
Nozzleman E311 Bravo
Hydrantman E311 Charlie
And so on
or another way
driver E311
Officer 3111
Nozzleman 3112
Hydrant many 3113
And if there are more riding assign something in line with the same.

A way that the deparments around the outerbanks use is as such: Primary engine would be engine and the station number.
ie: station 13 would be engine 13 ladder 13 truck 13 rescue 13 chief 13, Other engines would be as follow engine 13-2 13-3 and so on. portable assignments are as such the driver keeps the truck number. the officer takes portable 1, nozzleman takes protable 2, hydrantman takes portable 3. so it would be as such: engine 13 portable 1, engine 13 portable 2, engine 13 portable 3
Adam Brown - 10/03/06 - 19:43

Yes, I am afraid that you did misunderstand what I was saying. I was offering 2 different solutions to the accountability issues. The COUNTY needs to adopt the program not individual depts. If you leave it to the individual depts, then you still run a high risk of confusion. Say, Apex uses the “Portable” method that you described (which you and I both know that they do) and Holly Springs uses the “Phonetic” (Alpha,Bravo,etc) method, then you still have alot of confusion on the fireground. Therefore, I say pick a system and ENFORCE IT COUNTY WIDE!
Guest- I agree with your comments that not every station needs a Rescue or any specialty piece for that matter. The county should see that they are placed STRATEGICALLY around the county.
Wayne - 10/03/06 - 19:50

Yes, you’re correct with your interpretation of the system I am talking about. The only thing about your system that I personally don’t like is using the numbers 3111, 3112, etc. that’s all. I personally prefer the Officer being “Portable” while the firefighters being “Alpha, Bravo,etc”
Wayne - 10/03/06 - 20:03

Wayne and the Guest, 1st do we still use the 100’s,200’s in wake county? 2nd I agree about the rescues and ladders. About 13 years ago a fire marshal once told me on a haz-mat call that one day in the next 10 years we could see a county wide dept. He since has left to bigger things but what he said is true. He said the goal was to be county wide paid staff 24/7 and the vollies could bring the rest. His example was if WFD had a house fire this would be dispatched “WFD engine, KFD engine, ZFD ladder, WNHFD tanker and RRFD rescue” with 4 on each app you would have total of 20 people on scene just like “some bigger depts”. His point behind the discussion was staffing and providing a standard of service. He was hinting about the future. Look what has happened in the past 5 years. Dispatching multi depts to calls, closest units and a standard on minimum hiring requirements and pay!!!!! So I guess my long windedness “ha ha”. I don’t see why every dept has to have a heavy rescue maybe 1 out of 2 depts. The ladders though I am a big fan of true truck companies. What about a standard on accountability tags in wake county?
You boys stay low.
Jason Lane - 10/03/06 - 20:36

Wayne Im actually a big fan of the whole engine and portable assignments. ie: engine 13 portable 1 or a, and the driver being the apparatus number. No the county being one big department the advantages of that would def. outweigh the advantages of being separate. one set of guidelines, all aparatus is somewhat similar. Departments training on specific things such as rescue work or truck work. etc. I see wake county setting the bar for other counties and departments in the future. they have already gotten alot of departments on the pierce contender bid. lord only knows whats next
Adam Brown - 10/03/06 - 21:11


Yes, some depts in the county are still using the 100’,200’s, etc but the number of depts still using them is dwindling. Several depts. are going with XYZ Car-1, Car-2, etc. I guess it makes them sound more important or something. On the truck deal, well everyone who knows me, knows that I am a HUGE fan of TRUE TRUCK COMPANIES (NO TANKS, PUMPS, or HOSE) I don’t know about the entire county, but I know the North Region uses the passport system for accountability and TRY to use them when on calls. The biggest problem is people have to move around from apparatus to apparatus depending on what type of call is dispatched. So most just forget to place their tags on the board, so it gets overlooked until later in the game. It should definitely be standard across the county and enforced. To me, that is a whole new topic for discussion. Which, on a side note to that, when was the last time someone heard a PAR count over the air on a working fire?
Wayne - 10/03/06 - 21:47

I actually think we are somewhat both in agreement. I agree that the County needs to pick ONE system and enforce it county-wide. They should either choose to use the system that would make the Captain of E311, “E311 Portable”; OR they should use the system that makes the Captain of E311, “E311 Alpha.” No options of using this call sign over that call sign, etc. ALL departments should pick 1 system and stick to it. I believe we agree there..

Apex doesn’t really use that method I described. When I first saw the “Radio ID” information at Apex I thought I was looking at some mathmatical equation from hell! If I remember correctly, the Lt. and Capt. had their own ID number and could either use their number OR the portable number from the unit they are riding. For example:
E1 Captain: “Portable 11” OR their own ID # e.g. – 101, 102, 103, 201, 202, 203, 301, 302, 303 (depending on who is riding)
E2 Captain: “Portable 12” OR same as above.
L1 Captain: “Portable 21” OR same as above.
L3 Captain: “Portable 23” OR “ “
R1 and R3 Captain: “Portable 31” and “Portable 33” (respectively) OR individual #s.

In all cases, the Driver’s call sign was the unit they were assigned to. Also, if I understood it correctly, the firefighters (on Engine 1) would be “Portable 11 Alpha and Bravo.”

I was always confused about who was who on the radio. Everyone seemed to have their own number and some of those numbers would change if they were on/off duty. If you have too many numbers/combinations, it starts to become confusing and difficult to remember.

I think either one of the systems you described would work, I was simply pointing out another method which I’ve seen work successfully (I didn’t even think about Apex’s system until you mentioned it).
Luke - 10/03/06 - 22:19

As for accountability, in 2002 the Wake County FireFighters Association produced an Operating Guideline from the work of a committee, spearheaded by Chief Rich if memory serves correctly, to provide guidance for personnel accountability systems and RIT for all county departments that used the PAT/Passport system as its model. Not sure who uses it, I know we do and our surrounding departments do also. I have an electronic copy if anyone would like, send me a message.
McGraw (Email) - 10/03/06 - 22:38

So if the driver of the 2 in eng or rescue or ladder was inside the fire, would he still refer to himself as Eng 1 or Rescue 1 or whatever the apparatus number was for the piece he was riding?
Guest - 10/03/06 - 22:39

That is correct, the driver would still be E-1 or R-1, even if he was inside.
Wayne - 10/04/06 - 07:56

Why not make the portable radio callsigns even more simple than numbers or phonetics?
“Engine 2 officer to Engine 2 driver, give me water.”
Wouldn’t that be easy AND clear?
Just a thought.
attic.rat (Email) - 10/04/06 - 16:06

Apex has switched to the easiest radio I.D system I think that’s out there; for example, take Ladder 1 as the unit in question. The officer will be referred to as “Ladder 1-A”, the driver will be “Ladder 1”, no matter where he/she is. Firefighter #1 is “Ladder 1-B”, Firefighter #2 is “Ladder 1-C”. Durham has been using this system for some time, and it works well.

Anything in depth should be switching to NIMS anyway (roof division, vent team, search team).
Silver - 10/04/06 - 16:23

^ as Cary FD has started to do with the NIMS terminology, eg: 501 (officer E-5) is entering with 3 on the red line, we will be “fire attack in division 1” it gives an assignment and location. after that when calling command you use “fire attack in division 1 to command”, other terms are “search in division #” “ventilation”, RIT becomes just “RIT”, etc… it sounds a bit consfusing at first but can be easily expanded. If there are say 3 different fire attack teams in one division then you use “groups” and the officer of the first in fire attack team becomes “fire attack group” that person now “controls” the other fire attack teams from the interior and those teams report to him/her. Then they communicate with command or operations, or at least that’s how it is supposed to go. Now command or any other fireground unit does not need to persay know which unit is what, they can just call over the radio by function and location.
CFP 7021 - 10/04/06 - 16:30

Out of curiosity, what system does Raleigh go by?
Luke - 10/04/06 - 20:10

all that I know is that their engine officers go by #01 and the ladder officers go by #03 at least I know that’s how they used to do it
CFP 7021 - 10/04/06 - 23:35

Luke c3po is correct it goes like this. the number of app first then radio #(example)E7
engine officer-701
engine driver-702(if not at the pump, if pumping just engine7)
engine firefighter-703
engine firefighter-704
engine firfighter-705
rescue 7 officer-706
rescue firefighter-707( we only ride 2 on the rescues for now!)
ladder1 officer-106
ladder1 driver-107
ladder1 firefighter-108
ladder1 firefighter-109

Now I might have some of the numbers off because we only have two portable radios on the eng, ladders, 1 on rescues. But I do know we are getting more port. radio next year!!!!!!!I do know in Johnston county they use plan text backed by all depts. have car units. When I vollied there it was not that bad you just said who you were. Exp: “Corinth-Holders car 6 to command” and some officers went first name “Jason to Luke or Jason to Wayne” That worked fine when you new your mutual aid. Ya’ll keep up the good work!!!
Jason Lane - 10/05/06 - 01:09

“I agree that the County needs to pick ONE system and enforce it county-wide” and “The COUNTY needs to adopt the program not individual depts” and “My point is there needs to be a system wide overhaul and whatever is decided, it should be enforced countywide”. Good points – but put down the crackpipe and step away from the keyboard.

In a world where Fire Departments are still managed by Administrators that answer to an independent Board of Directors, the chances of truly achieving the level of cooperation you describe are nearly zero. The County Fire Marshal has no degree of authority to police the Fire Departments. Until the Board of Commissioners acknowledges the shortfalls of the current FD system and grants either the Public Safety Director or Fire Marshal the authority to establish AND ENFORCE procedures and policy in the County FDs, your ideas of cooperation will never exist. Recent attempts to standardize apparatus numbering have died in committee because of the “you can’t make me change the numbers on my engines and I’m not going to do it” mentality currently displayed by the Car 1’s/100’s of the County. We cite the recent pumper/tanker procurement as a step toward uniformity. No two departments have identical trucks – from gold leaf to discharge configuration – so what’s uniform about that???

Departments don’t adhere to the accepted procedures for the radio system; they continue to run any truck they want to on any call they get – even though they told the CAD folks the specific apparatus they want dispatched on a given call type. They still want their own talkgroup for all calls assigned to their department. They are going to do what they want to because no one can tell them otherwise and the elected officials are not going to risk upsetting the fire service community.

Nice ideas guys. I’ve enjoyed reading them.
Old Guest - 10/05/06 - 23:41

yeah but once you start messing with the $$$ folks will have to listen, at least the non-municipal depts… the fire commission can come together and tell the private fire chiefs what to do if they want the money, kind of like how now they tell them what trucks they will buy and what gear they will wear, as long as they want county money to buy it. It’ll take time, but it will come eventually.
CFP 7021 - 10/06/06 - 00:25

Old Guest-
While I can appreciate your candor on the subject, like CFP 7021 stated, if you take away the county money from most of these fire depts, they WILL NOT be able to survive. One thing in life still holds true: He who controls the money, controls the decisions!! All it will take is someone at the county level to take off the blinders.
Wayne - 10/06/06 - 07:34

Find one County Commissioner that is willing to go on record that they will withhold funding from a volunteer not-for-profit Fire Department to the point that the FD will cease operations because they wouldn’t change the number on the side of their truck and I’ll get that person elected President.
Old Guest - 10/08/06 - 23:19

It has nothing to do with “changing the number on the side of the truck”, it has to do with forcing the chiefs/depts to step up to the 21st century. Also, if someone was to inform the county commissioners about half of the nonsense that goes on here in, then it wouldn’t be hard for them step up. Look at the town of Knightdale and what it did a few years ago, who’s to say that the county can’t do it too?
Wayne - 10/09/06 - 08:44

Also, show me a VOLUNTEER non for profit fire department in this county. EVERY dept in this county has some kind of paid positions at it.
Wayne - 10/09/06 - 08:48

and it’s not necessarily the county commissioners… but more of the fire commission and the members of the respective committees. You can gold leaf the trucks superman sqadilla superpumper engine 129043832-adkr if they want to… I don’t care… but somewhere in non-expensive vinyl needs to be the county adopted unified apparatus number (prefer on at least 3 sides, front bumper, side windows or lower rear quarter panel, and rear tailboard area).

hey look at what the federal gov’t did, they said to do it their way and take their classes or don’t get any of their money. same kind of deal, the threat alone of withholding money is enough to force change, remember most of these “private” chiefs also draw some form of salary or ride in a dept owned vechile are they going to lose that over not changing what they call their trucks? nope… they’ll comply, just as they did when told what types of trucks and turnout gear to buy… It comes down to this, they are CONTRACTED by the county to provide a service, they are dispatched by a city/county agency and funded by taxpayer money, so yes the county commissioners and fire commission have every right to tell them how to do the “non technical” aspects of the job
CFP 7021 - 10/09/06 - 12:56

Why stop with “non-technical”?? If a good suppression tactic is being used by half the departments, why should the strategy not be adopted and trained systemwide? If there is an effective system for accountability and operating RIT teams, why not mandate it systemwide? Jeez. If I were a commissioner, I’d be more concerned with inconsistency in suppression tactics and firefighter safety than vehicle numbering. And yes every department does have paid staff – but many also continue to clearly spell out volunteer as an integral part of their name. Saw it on a really nice ladder truck last Saturday…

And about the Federal dollars… find one department that would be functioning any different today than they were 5 years ago without the Federal dollars. Those bucks, with the rare exception of Fire Act Grants, aren’t delivered directly to the fire depts. And the projects that Fire Act has funded in Wake during the past few years would have been funded by the Fire Commission eventually.

You have the right ideas. If more people adopt your ideas, the future in Wake County is bright. But until the 21 independent agencies that provide fire protection to the non-municipal areas of the County operate under the authority of one Chief, I don’t hold much hope. Keep up the fight.
Old Guest - 10/09/06 - 23:08

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