12/05/07 57 W, 1 I - + 10 - 13 This Evening's Fire

Three alarms at 6904 River Run Road, off Barton's Landing Road, off Ray Road. Engine 18 reporting major working fire on arrival. Two-story, wood-frame, garden-style apartment building with 16 units and 8,704 square-feet. Alarm time approximately 6:55 p.m. Photo posted from Legeros. Photos from Wilson forthcoming. Both arrived at the same time.

Does anyone have the run down of the 3 alarm units dispacthed? And did the closest units respond?
Just curious…... I tuned in pretty late into the incident.
jetexas - 12/05/07 - 22:36

1st Alm: E18,16,17,L16,R14,BATT4/BATT1
2nd Alm: E23,15,4,9,L23,C198,AIR8,C5
3rd Alm: E6,14,24,L11,R19,Field Com 1

No closest unit dispatch, would have been BL #3. Didn’t even send BL’s Air Truck.

Good job to the companies on scene.
ScannerJockey - 12/05/07 - 23:23

Seems to me both Bay Leaf and Durham Highway should have been sent on the second alarm, hell it is basically a straight shot for both of them. Any move ups by county units?
Closestunit - 12/05/07 - 23:48

no county move ups. several city moves ups: E13 E3, and so on.
jones1 - 12/06/07 - 08:19

E3 to S24
E13 to S18
L26 to S16
SJ - 12/06/07 - 12:46

[ Sign name to throw stones. Or rephrase as positive or constructive comment. ]
L - 12/06/07 - 13:15

Why was the county departments not activated on this incident? Closet unit dispatch was not utilized, why not?
NEff109 - 12/06/07 - 16:23

I think before you can make a good argument for county departments you have to look at who is staffed and who isn’t. Yes Durham Highway is staffed 24/7, but Bayleaf station 3 if only staffed till 6? Staffed units I think should be utilized but if you can’t guarantee that your rig is staffed they aren’t goin got call for you.
Falls202 - 12/06/07 - 16:52

A good way to maybe bring the county resources into this incident if they were not dispatched to the scene could have been to move Bay Leaf up to 18 and Durham Highway to 24 and keep ladder 26 going to 16 this keeps more city units in service in their first due while still filling the stations that needed to be filled.
Closestunit - 12/06/07 - 17:14

Why would you not want a response from the closest units regardless of staffing. In a large fire, manpower is necessary to ensure safe long term operations. The response time of a non-staffed station is (usually) still well within ISO guidelines. Deplete the stations in the city because a county non-staffed station might take a few minutes more to get there??
Confused - 12/06/07 - 17:32

Closest unit only applies to the first due engs.
Mike - 12/06/07 - 17:39

I agree Confused. Back filling stations with “non-staffed” unit would make more sense anyway. It’s not an emergency response where a few minutes could make a difference, but those resources have to be requested, they don’t just magically show up.
SJ - 12/06/07 - 17:40

this poor horse…. we’ve killed it and brought it back to life more times than in a zombie movie.

Plain and simple. Closest station is based on FIRST DUE, and engines only when dealing with city into county and county into city.

It is up to the I/C to call for specifics if they want them past that. The same would make sense when backfilling a station. Heck there have been numerous Raleigh FD units filling in in Cary recently, they got what was called for specifically.

The other item that has already been brought up is staffing. Why in the world would I (as and I/C) want to call for a truck that I have no idea in the world will get out the door to my call if I can call for a truck that I at least know will get on the road within 1 minute? Also if these trucks were staffed and the radios were working why not call the I/C or even one of the other chiefs and see if you could offer aid? I know it’s been done in certain areas, and has been encouraged by numerous battaion chiefs in the RFD. They’re human and can forget about the county guys!

Until we change policy within the county that only staffed units are “in service” the closest station theory cannot work. You want to get 4 trucks out the door of your station, then put the staffing to get them out (and in accordance with NFPA 1710/1720). Your department dispatches 5 trucks to an automatic alarm and 2 get out the door, who are you hurting? Take those units out of service and only mark them in when they are staffed with a qualified (note, not certified) crew.

I have heard the county has dedicated to staffing one engine per department (and further per station) in the future, it may go to eliminate some of these problems.

all things aside kudos to the brothers and sisters from the RFD for their efforts. Good job!
CFP 7021 (Email) - 12/06/07 - 19:10

Whether a unit is closer than another unit to an alarm is pretty much irrelevant. What matters is quickest unit dispatch. Who cares if a county unit is closer if it takes them an extra two minutes to get out of the door because they have to wait for more personnel? It’s true that sometimes units that are requested on a second or third alarm are needed for long term operations. But what about when a second alarm is requested for a firefighter, or numerous civilians trapped? Are we going to have two different run cards; one for when units are immediately needed and one for when they are not?
Rookienc - 12/06/07 - 19:45

How is it irrelevant? Isn’t it still a call? Are you saying closest/quickest is only good for structure fires? I feel for that poor guy having a code behind a county station while the city screams in from 4 minutes away, or vice versa.

Once again.. IF they can get out the door, and with what type of training/competence are they going to have on arrival? If you are calling a city unit you know their staffing and experience level. With calling for a normally unstaffed county county then you have no idea what you are getting.

Until that changes closest, quickest, most rapid, it doesn’t matter, there will still be a doubt in that I/C’s mind.

There’s a big difference, not saying that city or county stations, trucks, or people are better. But at least you know 100% what you are getting. Until the county can assure every department in it is up to a similar level then there will be doubt and rational reasoning for why cities call their own.
CFP 7021 (Email) - 12/06/07 - 21:12

I thought each VFD here in (2007) had a crew/team on duty and are required to stay at the station to provide
a quick and timely response. ie Durham Highway…Guess that’s not the case. My mistake!

Not going to bore everybody with how things are done here in my city in Texas.

I wasn’t trying to wake the dead horse….I understand he died a long time ago.

I was just simply asking how and what resources were used in this incident.

No, I don’t have a dog in this fight but let me say this… you guys have a lot to be thankful of.

Ya’ll have soooo many more resources than we have down here, I hope they are being used to their max.
jetexas - 12/06/07 - 23:00

while most depts do, not every station does. Some have full time staffing, some have duty crews, some sit empty in the evenings. But with all units being marked “in service” in CAD you cannot tell at a glance which station is staffed or not. Durham Highway does have career staffing, supplemented by volunteers at night, so yes, calling for one of their companies would have been a good call. Like you said we are very lucky in Wake County, but we are still behind the 8 ball in regards to a lot of things. We have some great equipment and some direction, now we need to put bodies in seats and begin to run like the capital county should. It’s time to step up the game if we want to work seamlessly between the county and the cities. There is no reason for one county department to have career staffing 24/7 while another sits empty from 5PM-7AM M-F and on the weekends. All citizens in non-municipal areas pay the exact same tax to the county and deserve to have the exact same level of protection.
CFP 7021 (Email) - 12/06/07 - 23:11

Point well taken 7021. I agree with you, there should be the same level of protection and MANPOWER provided to
all citizens in the city and county. Maybe we’ll get there someday, hopefully sooner than later.
jetexas - 12/07/07 - 11:40

Round and round we go…..
Silver - 12/07/07 - 12:27

Until the county comes up with a standard certification level/staffing level for anyone to ride on a fire truck we won’t see the city calling for county departments often. Like 7021 said, the city doesn’t want to be calling for a unit and not knowing what they are getting on it. Hell no one wants to do that. I’d love to see the fire service evolve in Wake County so that it really doesn’t matter what the side of your truck says, if that means a Holly Springs Unit is on the second alarm to downtown Raleigh then great. It would be great to see one CAD system not one for the county and one for the city if that was to happen we would truly have closest unit dispatch. Unfortuantly at this time only some of the county departments are at a constant staffing level that makes them reliable…
Snell (Email) - 12/07/07 - 13:48


(appling electrodes)

Monitor is ON…printing strip…


This horse is D E A D…

DOA, DRT, FUBAR, AART (already at room temperature).

C’mon guys…let’s find something else to beat to death…over and over….
DJ (Email) - 12/07/07 - 14:35

Bethesda E-421 moved up and stood by Sta 24 at the time of 3rd alarm dispatch
Kevin (Email) - 12/07/07 - 23:46

I need to agree with 7021’s earlier statement if county units can’t be staffed they should be put 10-7. This practice is used by some county depts. However these efforts are being thwarted by the county. They seem to think if you don’t have the staffing then maybe you 30 yr old 2nd engine shouldn’t be replaced. Maybe funding should be cut in half for that dept. Either way the ball still falls in the county’s hands to properly staff stations county wide. Trying not to beat MR Ed anymore, but 2 guys can’t respond an Engine, 2 Tankers, & a rescue. Sorry done beating the Horsey
FF480 - 12/08/07 - 00:59

You think funding should be cut in half. I have to agree with most of you when you say there is no point in dispatching an empty unit, but what was it that you needed at that fire; PERSONNEL. Not fifteen engines, 3 rescues, 3 trucks, and etc. PERSONNEL. Full time staffing should be mandatory at county departments, 24/7/365. My house in Rolesville and my Grandmother in Fairview is just as important as your stuff in the city.
NEff109 - 12/08/07 - 01:35

[ Closing thread… Send me mail if you have questions, concerns, or comments. ]
Legeros - 12/08/07 - 06:48