04/12/09 83 W, 1 I - + 20 - 11 New Pierce Pumpers For Raleigh

Pierce has posted photos of Raleigh's newest engines, a pair of Arrow XT pumpers, 1500 GPM, 500 gallons, with Waterous pumps and Husky foam systems. These are the first Arrow XT engines for the city. Most recently, Raleigh has received Pierce Enforcers. The historical perspective, since the first engine was delivered in 1989: Arrow (4), Lance (2), Dash (2), Sabre (8), Enforcer (7). See and read more on the Pierce site. Two platforms from Pierce are also due later this spring. Click to enlarge:

Nice sharp trucks….glad to see the roll up doors painted red.

Any idea where they will placed in service?
Buckwheat - 04/12/09 - 15:14

I like the body colored roll up doors as well.

I’ve always liked the Arrow XT chassis, one question for the RFD brothers… what is in the diamond tread box on the roof, the one with the single red LED on it?
CFP 7021 (Email) - 04/12/09 - 15:49

air condition maybe????
14 driver - 04/12/09 - 16:04

Jon. It will still be many many months. It was still at the shop last month waiting to go back to Pierce. Maybe someone can advise if its gone yet or not. Someone said it could be o/o/s for 6-9 months.
lee - 04/13/09 - 01:32

There is also a box on the right side of the roof. The shield is slightly different on the door. Theres also a small flag on the side of the cab.
lee - 04/13/09 - 01:54

They look great and being a tall guy, I appreciate the raised cab. :) I love a Pierce!
Leo (Web Site) - 04/13/09 - 10:36

Any answer on the box up top? Or is it just a place to mount a warning light?
ncff - 04/14/09 - 17:57

Air-conditioning, I believe. See the Arrow XT brochures on the Pierce site.
Legeros - 04/14/09 - 18:53

The engines were delivered Monday. They’ll be replacing Engine 1 and Engine 20. Old Engine 1 will replace Engine 22. Old Engine 22 and old Engine 20 will go into reserve.
Legeros - 04/14/09 - 19:19

Mike Eng. 22 is not that old in relation to some of the other engines is it???
[jdkay2839] - 04/14/09 - 19:29

If my information is correct, it’s…

E1 – 2004 American LaFrance Eagle
E20 – 1997 Pierce Saber pumper
E22 – 1997 Pierce Saber pumper
Legeros - 04/14/09 - 19:31

From http://www.legeros.com/ralwake/raleigh/
Legeros - 04/14/09 - 19:34

Interesting replacements. I had heard they were originally going to replace E1 & E13 and 20 would receive old 1 while 22 would receive old 13. Wonder why the sudden change-up? Quite possibly because E13 will soon become E29? Nahhh.
RescueRanger - 04/14/09 - 21:00

Miiiggghhhhttttt beeeeee!!!! Let me pose this question; is it common practice to give your busiest units the newest equipment? Or, is it better (and/or the “right” thing to do) to just put companies on a list and when your time comes up you get a NEW ride? For company pride purposes, my opinion is the latter. Even if you’re in the slowest engine company, eventually you’ll get a brand new ride versus someone else’s rag. I also think, if you know that you’re not getting a new ride for, say, 10 years, you’re more likely to take care of it. Opinions?
Silver - 04/14/09 - 22:15

Silver… I’ll agree with option #2, replacing the trucks as they come up on the list to be replaced. That’s generally how it is here, there are still some of the busiest trucks waiting for replacement while some of the slowest trucks have new rides.
Luke - 04/14/09 - 23:26

I’m with the fire guys on this one, even though I’m in EMS... while there is more ability to truck-swap due to amount of equipment, I’d much rather have a list for replacement, then get someone’s old hoopty that is trying to fall apart, while they get a new ride to turn into a POS.
CJS (Email) - 04/15/09 - 01:06

Is anyone ever noticed that most of the trucks that break down often, are the the rigs that don’t run many fires?
RT - 04/15/09 - 01:20

I agree with option #2 as well. You have a sense of pride and ownership for your apparatus and you will tend to care for it more if you know you have to make it last. Additionally, apparatus that’s “worked in” does seem to get the job done like no other. I’m sure someone can address this from a financial perspective though. Does it cost more or less to leave apparatus at it’s station until the standard replacement period is up regardless of it’s run time?
Car 4 - 04/15/09 - 08:46

Not sure of your point “RT”, but if you trace the roots of said apparatus, it more than likely was ragged out before it found its’ spot to graze at a slow house.
Silver - 04/15/09 - 08:48

If you are looking to achieve a standard “wear out” rate through the average twenty-year life cycle of an apparatus, it does make sense to rotate units from higher volume areas to those that don’t run as often. With option #2, you in theory could run a truck into the ground in ten years at one station while at another station, you could probably get 25 years plus out of the same truck. This model would eventually give your busiest houses apparatus that are less dependable, not due to disregard or misuse – they’ve just been run hard. While your more quiet houses keep a parade unit forever because they just don’t see the work. You have to look at it from the perspective of maintaining an overall fleet readiness, rather than station by station. I support rotating units from high demand areas after several years of service to lower demand areas. I think you’ll see more of this approach with fiscal tightening in everyones budget. You get the money for a truck – you have to take whatever measures required to ensure you get the years of service you need in return for your investment. This is most evident in situations where the lifespan is anticipated to be 10 or more years and where different station locations experience wide differentials in call volume. I’m sure there are many FDs in America tonite that would like to have 12 year old Pierce Sabers as their reserve fleet.
Olson - 04/15/09 - 22:55

I’m going to throw this term out once again….“esprit de corps”. It’s about company pride folks; if you know in three years you’re getting another new ride, why worry about driving habits? If you know that you are going to have this rig for 10 years, you’re more apt to take care of it. You speak of years of return in a rig. Engine 20 is a ’97 model and is pretty ragged out (12 years of life). Yes, I know some agencies would kill for a 97 model. This isn’t about other agencies, it’s about us (RFD).

So on your plan Jon, going from a busy house to a slow house (Engine 20), you’ll get 12 years out of it. But slow houses get a unit and keep it for 20 years…seems to me that scenario is better for your money.

Oh well, everyone has an opinion. Neither is right or wrong…stay safe.
Silver - 04/16/09 - 00:50

One issues that needs to be considered is whether the replacement schedule is solely based on a time frame, or whether it is based on the miles/engine hours of the truck. If you absolutely must keep a truck for a minimum amount of years, then it only makes sense financially to move it to the slower stations to help preserve it. If, however, the schedule is based on miles/hours, then it would not matter if it took E-20 20 years to reach that mileage, or E-1 5 years to reach it….they would both still get a new engine at some point.
H2O - 04/16/09 - 11:20

I think that the replacement schedule should be based on miles/engine hours. Yes, this does mean that more than likely the busy houses will get replacements sooner than some of the slower houses. Is it fair that a slower house doesn’t get a new truck as often or that they get hand me downs all the time, well no but thats life. Eventually that hand me down will get the miles on it and will be replaced then they will get a new truck. This issue not only relates to RFD Silver, but the to the county also. I don’t think these new Pierce Pretenders that the county has choosen will hold up for 20 years, let alone 8-10 years in some county houses. I think that they apparatus committee for the county should consider rotating a truck out to slower county stations after a certain number of miles/engine hours. This will save money and hopefully lead to a longer life out of a truck.

As far as “esprit de corps” Silver, I think that is hard to obtain somewhat in these area departments. This is because personel get transferred to often. I wholeheartedly think that personel should stay at a station for life unless they put in for a transfer or are promoted. But this is completely separate issue.
Mike - 04/16/09 - 11:53

I see what you’re saying, but, it never works that way. The outer lying companies get the rags most of the time, the busier ones get the new rigs. My opinion, it’s sort of a downer for those companies.

As far as transfers, I’d love to see it based on seniority. If I enjoy being at “wherever”, then I should have the option to stay. Organize a “bid” type process, do it on seniority, and bid for your spot every few years or whatever. If you get promoted, well, you know there’s a chance you’re going to get the less desired companies. As you build seniority in rank, you can bid for better companies. If you’ve worked in a city, you know that some people are better in your “ghetto area”, where others just don’t need to be down there, and vice-versa. Another way to build “esprit de corps”, for the city guys anyway, is to stop referring to your assignment as a “station”. Last time I checked, we’re all assigned to companies, not stations.
Silver - 04/16/09 - 13:45

Personally, I think it just plain makes sense to give the busier companies a new ride just as Mike describes. What sense does it make for 20 to get a brand new ride while E-19 is riding an already wore out Quality that we received as a hand-me down and has twice as many runs as 20?
RescueRanger - 04/16/09 - 21:21

I think it make perfect sense. :)
gen3fire - 04/16/09 - 21:55

Both Silver and Mike’s comments have merit. No one wants to inherit someone else’s worn out apparatus and the problems the previous company had with the apparatus now become their’s. The best solution is to have a replacement list devised and when the apparatus comes up for replacement then replace it with a new piece of equipment. But the ultimate problem lies solely with the transferring issue. When an individual graduates from the academy their assignment should be their’s for their career, unless they promote out or ask for a transfer. Make the transfer request a certain time a year, every year and base the rewarding of the request off seniority. This system is the fairest method. If this is done then it will help to the address the other issue dealing with apparatus replacement and firehouse maintence.

Individuals want to have pride and tradition within the fire service. But as long as transferring takes place you will never acheive a high level of “espirt de corps” because there is never a sense of ownership. Nobody wants to put their own time, effort, or money into a firehouse or apparatus that they know that they aren’t going to be assigned to permanetly. If you stop transferring then you create ownership and individuals are more likely to put more pride in the apparatus and house they are assigned to and therefore take better care of both.
wfd - 04/17/09 - 09:23

I’m with folks on saying that company assignments are not as long-lasting as they should be, but I draw the line at a career at one place… with the same people… you miss the opportunity to learn new things by going to different places… maybe a 10-year rotation at one place would be a better idea. You still get the ability to have a sense of permanance, and of ownership in the place you live, but with the ability to still see a different place.
CJS (Email) - 04/17/09 - 09:59

I understand about getting to see different places but that should be up to the individual, thats what the transfer request would cover. If an individual likes where he or she is at then what’s the purpose in moving them and possibly transferring them to a house or territory they don’t want to be in. If you are at a place you like your moral is going to be high and you are going to really take pride and do the best job possible. If you go somewhere you don’t want to be then you aren’t going to put as much in your job because you don’t want to be there in the first place. Also staying with one crew allows you to learn everyone’s strength’s and weaknesses and being comfortable with your crew allows the crew to be proficent and to perform their job at the highest level. Also staying at a house a career allows you to know the territory you serve at the highest level which in turn provides the best possible service to the citizens you serve and the citizens deserve that. Switching crews all the time makes it so that you are always starting over and having to relearn all these things again and when you get comfortable, you are moving again. But with that said if staying at a house your career is not a possibilty, then 10-years is a good option.
wfd (Email) - 04/17/09 - 11:35

I can see both sides of it… for me, I would not want to see only one place for my career… but I do understand the benefits of working with one crew for the duration.

So, there’s pros and cons and in both sides. It all depends on your view.

But back to the main purpose of this thread… they are sharp trucks. I like the roll-up doors painted, and the classic lines of the trucks.
CJS (Email) - 04/17/09 - 11:47

The trucks do look great. I really like the Arrow XT.
wfd (Email) - 04/17/09 - 12:35

I wish it was like Charlotte in that when a new station opens a brand new piece of equipment is purchased for that station. I am sure I will get to ride on one of those Shiny new Pierces in Raleigh but it will be at least 10 years old by then.
Falls - 04/19/09 - 17:17

engine 20 is also a beltline company and one of the few left without the foam unit! engine 7 is older and has a lot of miles on it and is surrounded by new engines! For awhile that was a key in where the new engines with the foan went also due to beltline! beltline engines with foam, 9, 11, 12, 8, so now 20 and the only ones left without foam is 16 and 10! I rode on 27 for 3 years and we started with the pirsh and it was past wore out then we got a pierce arrow now 125 it was also wore out! Then they got an old quality. So yeah sometimes you need new trucks at slower stations but then again when you are on a busy engine that gets wore out it sucks when you switch out all the time because of your call volume and wear and tear. So it can be a double edge sword! I am just glade we aren’t on those open cab macks anymore! good luck and stay safe! love you boys!
Jason Lane - 04/19/09 - 18:14

Actually E-10 is the only beltline unit without foam.
RescueRanger - 04/19/09 - 19:31

How about 14?
Silver - 04/19/09 - 22:00

Hey there…I’m from south texas and we are looking into an arrow xt. I like the set up and was wondering if I can get a job number from the new engine11 or engine 13. would love to refrence that with my pierce rep. if any help can be thrown out there I would appreciate it. I know this is an old post but I would love to get that info from one of you guys. thanks a lot….from s.texas
Jay Dalton (Email) - 09/26/11 - 20:53

Thanks for your note, Jay. I will inquire and see if someone can get that for you.
Legeros - 09/26/11 - 20:53

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