06/02/11 178 W, 1 I - + 4 - 2 Today's House Fire in Wake Forest

Or rather, outside Wake Forest. Dispatched as a fire alarm to 6808 Moresham Way. Arriving units found fire already venting from a one-story, wood-frame dwelling with 2,314 square-feet. Built 1994. Falls Pumper 212 was the first engine on scene. Supply line down long driveway to Bay Leaf Stony Hill Pumper 261. Drop-tank at street, with water point at Wakefield Baptist Church. Interior attack until crews pulled out, say, 15 minutes later. Evacuation order also rebroadcast by Central. Command located in driveway, and rehab located beside driveway. 

Dispatched about 5:25 p.m. Fire contained by time of Mr. Blogger's arrival at 6:40 p.m. Extended overhaul, with crews still on scene. Departments and units included Bay Leaf (P258, P252, P361, P121, P122, Air 12), Durham Highway (E1), Falls (P212, P211), Franklinton (Falls coverage), New Hope (E1, Tanker 10, C1), Rolesville (Tanker 158, C3), Stony Hill (P261, Tanker 268), Wake Forest (E1, E2, E3, C1), Youngsville (Tanker 44), and Wake County EMS (EMS 12, EMS 15, EMS 33, D3, M93, T1). Readers can add additional details and corrections therein. See preliminary photos by Mike Legeros. Click to enlarge:

WOW - 06/02/11 - 23:41

Supply line was to Stony Hill 261. Stony Hill 395 responded too. Falls 212 and 211 were there. New Hope Engine 1 and Rolesville car 3 also. Bay Leaf with coverage at Stony Hill station 1 and I think at Falls as well eventually. Raleigh engine 27 at Wake Forest Station 2 and out of service Wake Forest engine 4 put back in service and staffed.
Lastly let this call be a lesson and a reminder to all who respond to fire alarms in a lackadaisical fashoin, with no airpacks, no tools, and sometimes no turnout gear. Treat every fire alarm as a possible structure fire because you never know when you might roll up on this.
listening - 06/02/11 - 23:50

Majority of those engines were pumper tankers and were acting as tankers to help supply a large volume of water via tanker shuttle and drop tanks to a well involved structure. No hydrants in reasonable proximity here, how else do you suppose they get water to fight the fire?
WOW? - 06/02/11 - 23:55

@listening…Amen about fire alarm response.
Silver - 06/03/11 - 00:50

Preliminary photos posted, http://legeros.com/ralwake/photos/2011-0..
Legeros - 06/03/11 - 08:04

Good job North Side. Another working BOX for Falls Fire.
JG - 06/03/11 - 12:27

JG is not the real JG of Falls
JG? - 06/03/11 - 12:30

Does Franklinton and Youngsville have paid day time guys or are they all volunteer 24/7?
Great to see those guys helping out. I know they are very much appreciated.
And did command have to call for additional resources by department or did dispatch have the automatic aid set up and did it include the Fraklin County Departments?
Just wondering - 06/03/11 - 14:22

I know Youngsville has day-time staff at all three stations but I can’t speak for Franklinton.
911 - 06/03/11 - 15:42

Franklinton is 100% Vollie
F-655 - 06/03/11 - 15:47

Command had to call individual resources. There is no second alarm.
Answer - 06/03/11 - 15:48

So much for closest-unit response. Previously I posted how the county departments were getting screwed by the City by putting the city residents before the county residents by only implementing closest-unit response when it brings the county into the city limits and this call is a prime example. The only time I hear the city going into the county is when there are plans of annexation of certain areas. E10, 12, 26, Garner and Eastern Wake are prime examples. However, in this case the city will never annex the watershed so why send a unit?
According to Google maps E25 is 3.4 miles to this location. Falls is 3.8 miles. Stony Hill #1 is 5.0 miles.
Just an observation.
RescueRanger - 06/04/11 - 20:40

RR thats a great point, there is a lot of issue with closest unit response. Another factor to look at is that since closest unit was initially implemented, the people who created it have never updated it. They havent gone back to look and see if new neighborhoods have been built or if some areas need revising because a “closest unit” really isnt closest. It is a flawed system with so much potential that will never work right.
On another point, even if E25 was not on initial, why not have them respond along with E22 once additional full assignments were requested, I understand they only have 500 gallons of water and are not vital to the water supply issue and have to be special called but they could have been used for manpower and at least help get lines into place and make some additional attacks while water supply was being fully established. Not only could they have been there faster then many other units but it could have helped to ease the massive depletion of the departments on the north side. Including coverage bayleaf had 6 of 8 engines out there, falls, stony hill and wake forest completely depleted, durham highway down to 1 engine, new hope down to one engine. I know its after the fact and its been harped on enough but maybe when the contract with Motorola ends in about a year, a new system can help to ease our problems
agreed - 06/04/11 - 21:17

RR and Agreed you are correct! The system is flawed! We run with WNHD station 1 all the time, they send us and them to fire and ems call off of n new hope but the other day when we had the apartment fire on coolridge which is about 2 city blocks from n new hope rd they were not even on the run card 1st or 2nd alarm! that make no sense they are a heck of alot closer than 15, 11, 27 and 21! We train with them, break bread with them and run calls on one street but not the next! Anyway be safe brothers!J
Jason Lane - 06/04/11 - 21:35

They run with Garner because they were asked to so that we have a 3rd eng on fires which will potentially be assigned RIT unless they arrive 2nd due and not 3rd due. In other areas they truly are the closest unit ie the Gatewood subdivision.
Mi - 06/04/11 - 22:19

OK here’s the dirt. You all know that county-city stuff is crazy. Closest unit response from RFD into the county is based upon RFDs willingness to allow when they are asked. It is simple and has nothing to do with watershed, annexation or citizens. In this case it has simply never been asked of RFD to respond into this area. The system is not flawed but the orchestration if it is and we all know that. Let’s flip the coin now. Response into the city by the county is another story. For example – County department says – “Raleigh can I PLEEEEAAASSEEE run calls in the city because I am closer and I will do it for FREE”. City says – “Sure, county fire department. Knock you socks off. You can respond into the city especially if it is free, does not cost Raleigh anything, all expenses are paid by the county and RFD gets extra personnel”. So the county department says – “Oh that is so cool. I can now justify keeping my station open due to the number if incidents I can post from this station and show just how valuable I am to the city”. Sounds silly doesn’t it?
Closest unit blah blah - 06/05/11 - 01:37

What an idiot. No one asked to run closest unit you DA! It was simply implemented as the right thing to do for the citizens we serve. If my loved one needs help I don’t care what it says on the door of the truck and neither should you. We are out there to save lives and property, in case you forgot. Go back under that rock you’re living under.
blah blah - 06/05/11 - 11:05

I know the county and ECC are preparing to re-evaluate the current CAD recommendations for closest station/unit response (in the county) over the next few months. For example, the existing response areas will be adjusted based on new road construction, traffic patterns, etc. I hope there is better consistency between city and county on this one too. Maybe we will see an improved collective response that is more appropriate and hopefully with less duplication of assests. We’ll keep our fingers crossed!
A.C. Rich - 06/05/11 - 13:01

Also, Justin, ...you did a great job as command at this fire. Don’t forget: (1) we did not start the fire, (2) it typically has a head start on us in a rural area, and (3) ain’t nothing going to be perfect at a fire scene! Good calls for safety were made from evacuation as collapse insued, to water supply needs, to addiitonal personnel. Yep, as RR listed above, E25 would have been a definiite asset, but oh well… maybe next time. Again, good job sir!
A.C. Rich - 06/05/11 - 13:09

one can only hope it will improve… but ill hold my breath on that one
agreed - 06/05/11 - 13:09

This particular fire was interesting in particular, as a chief (?) officer came on the radio very early into the incident, to suggest that additional resources be pulled from areas a bit farther away. Don’t recall hearing that before, though it is probably or certainly done on occasion.
Legeros - 06/05/11 - 13:10

Thats true, i believe it was a Wake Forests chief that suggested that in dispatching additional assignments, not to pull them all from same station or same area in an early attempt to avoid depleting the north side. Its a good suggestion that should be done in every large scale fire without having to be requested
listening - 06/05/11 - 16:05

or maybe it was a falls chief, i know wake forest did ask central to have a Raleigh Battalion chief contact him so he could pull a Raleigh engine into coverage
listening - 06/05/11 - 18:12

While I see the logic, and think it’s great for long, drawn out incidents, it shouldn’t be the case for every big job. RFD used to do that on anything over a 2nd alarm. Great if the fire is contained (in this case it was), but on a true “snot slinger”, when there’s still an active fight, bring in the closest. That’s why you have a move-up plan…...

RFD is working on this, I believe the Communication Committee, which is good to see.

On this one, seemed to work out perfectly, just one of those stubborn fires with a water supply issue and extreme weather conditions. Hydrate yourselves Brothers and Sisters, and that means before your tour!!!
Silver - 06/05/11 - 22:30

running automatic aid into another district does NOTHING to help keep a station open. Those runs are thrown out during the analyzation process. The only runs they look at are runs in YOUR district, and that, is a fact. As for closest unit it only counts for the county going into the city, when the county unit is 30 seconds or more quicker than the FIRST due RFD Station, not unit, but station. Once you start delving into second and third due, the county units are completely excluded from the equation.

and a lot of these things are “closest unit” based on countless meetings between the respective departments figuring things out, not at a higher level such as within RWECC. Couple that with a CAD system that is still based on police beats and geopoints and you can easily figure out why CAD is so dang screwy…
fact check - 06/05/11 - 23:49

@Fact check; Just out of curiosity is there a way to look up how many calls a department actually runs excluding the auto/mutual aid calls?
RescueRanger - 06/06/11 - 23:32

All these units… All the risk to responders..citizens.. All the money spent on this response… and the house still burned up… When are we gonna quit all this overkill on burning up houses… If it is gone.. turn everyone around.. keep it from spreading.. and lets try again another day.. thank God someone did not get hurt in this futile and overzealous fiasco…
Chuck - 06/07/11 - 22:43

Overzealous fiasco? Interesting… If you are an emergency responder, your opinion is very odd. If a citizen, I can understand to a degree. Please explain your perception more.
A.C. Rich - 06/08/11 - 00:18

I would have to agree somewhat on chuck’s point…way overkill for this call, I sat there and couldnt believe there was 16 trucks responding…what was the manpower total on scene???..i can understand the need for tankers but damn!..some units took 20+ mins to get there ..by the time the house is a smoking hulk and will be gutted anyway…protect the exposures, lessen the chance for a responder to get injured and insurance will cover the house…just my opinion
got a point - 06/08/11 - 16:47

Good points. Tankers are needed but personnel are too (it’s a 95 degree day). Maybe some of the resources could have been returned earlier, but that is a decision of the IC and his resource management approach. Maybe this can be educational to some extent… Here’s my perspective as a fire chief in a rural area. I agree… it really does seem like a lot of resources, but rural water supply requirements are very different than what most associate with a typical municipal fire. Yeah… we all know that. Here’s one traditional gap in understanding… a rural firefighting reality is to plan for (auto-aid) or request assistance (mutual-aid) based on the potential and return the assets if not needed. Therefore many rural fire departments have established larger run orders for rural structural fires so an adequate initial attack may be established with the “dispatched” resources. Strategy aside, water is a premium. Also, time of day and the availability of responders is also a factor. Even still, after the fire is out, overhaul is a large undertaking where personnel resources will be stressed.

As for mutual aid and tankers: an accurate rule of thumb for rural water supply is 1ea. 1000 gallon tanker per 100 gpm flow needed (or expected), per mile one way to the water point. So if 500gpm is required or expected and it is 2 miles (one way) to the water point, the total minimal tankers required would be 10. If we apply the IFSTA recommendation of “+1”, 11 tankers would be recommended. Those tankers are required on the road and do not include the other pumping apparatus and personnel needed. Granted the tankers will drop their personnel on the scene. If we truly speak of the safety of responders, risk is minimized if enough resources are on the scene and rehab is rotated. Overkill is a gauged statement based on the value an agency leader places on their personnel. Sorry… I’m sounding like Mr. Blah Blah above by going “blah, blah, blah” and preaching to the choir! As for Stony Hill, we appreciate your auto-aid response and we’ll have water if you will come!
A.C. Rich - 06/08/11 - 18:02

One thing I have seen as a potential problem(libality/image) in my past vollie experience is the need for the water supply office to cut the mutual aid back to non emergency traffic once the fire is under control and the overhaul is started. No need for 10-4 on the floor back and forth from the water point!!! And no I am not talking about this call.
Rob Mitchell - 06/08/11 - 20:35

I think we can minimize the traffic and danger of all the pumper/ tankers if we go with the idea of the tractor drawn tankers that Chief Swift had! Ha Ha Ha!! All joking aside. How many gallons of water was used on this fire and how many tankers were in the shuttle that had 1500 gallons or more?
Tanker - 06/08/11 - 21:10

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